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> Registrations In Us Continue To Decline, And the AHA is doing What?
Dieter
post Nov 6 2007, 02:31 AM
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Hello Anitae,

QUOTE
Using Liz' numbers (great info), these major sires are responsible for about 12% of all SE foals in the US during that 15-year time period (I did the number in my head - Liz, you have the total number of foals for that 15 year period and can correct my rough calculation). That means 88% are sired by OTHER sires. Does this mean we have a genetic diversity problem? How do we know? I'm playing devil's advocate here, but there has been no serious study of genetics done in the SE population that I am aware of.

Anita (who is busy working on the strategic plan for the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse, which deals with some of these issues)
The below information was created and posted by our Regional Director for the PS a few years back (who busted her butt for the region, I might add) that is the closest I've seen of any SERIOUS study done. Keep in mind many of these horses are related (brothers, uncles, etc.) when considering the diversity in the gene pool.:

The LIST FOR 2003

These are the Straight Egyptian Sires which have sired foals in the 2003 straight Egyptian Foal crop. The number beside each stallions name represents how many foals they have sired in the 2003 foal crop that have been registered with AHA in the United States as of April 15, 2005.
Regards,
Brenda at Tuscani in Michigan

Number of Straight Egyptian foals registered as of April 15, 2005, representing the Straight Egyptian Arabian Foal crop of 2003-These foals would be Two this year.

Foal Count-737

*El Rabie-1
*Ibn Safinaz-2
*Sayaf-1
Abadon-4
Abraxas Abu Hilal-1
Abraxas Halimaar-1
Abraxas Prince-1
Achaean Ali-2
AF Orion-1
AK Khazar-1
AK Rasul-1
AK Shah Munifeh-4
Al Baraki-18
Al Nakib-1
Al Saaheb-1
Al Salil-1
Alaa Al Din-1
Alaa Khaleef-2
Albadieh Aswad Emir-3
Ali Azimm-2
Ali Barba-1
Ali Bubba-2
Ali Nefous-7
Ali Sakour-1
Ali Saroukh-1
Alixir-11
Almoraima Capitan-1
Almoraima Gitano-1
AMA Fa-Serr-1
Amir Alih-2
Amir Amante-3
Amir El Fareed-1
Amir Kamaal-3
Amir Seralim BWA-1
Anaza El Farid-1
Anchor Hill Faser-1
Ansata El Sharaf-2
Ansata Iemhotep-5
Ansata Ken Rashik-2
Ansata Malik Shah-7
Ansata Nile Bay-4
Ansata Nile Sheik-3
Ansata Sinan-1
Ansata Sirius-8
Ansata Sokar-3
Apple Hillel Nisr-2
Arabest Samir-2
Bacaarat-2
Baraka Julyan-1
Baraka Zouhair-1
BB Thee Renegade-2
Bedu Sabir-1
Benchmark Halima-1
BFA El Azim-1
BG Maasai-1
BKA Imeer-3
BKA Rashiq-1
Blu Epic-1
Botswana-2
BR The Felon-2
Cajun Man-1
CH Bay Halima-1
CL Amin RA-1
CN Jericho-3
D Artagnann-2
DH Prince Lbadi-1
Dhar Faa Halim-1
Drakkar-1
DS Evolution-1
Du Avatar Serrgem-1
DW Ali Kaliph-2
DW Signature-1
Egyptian Wizard-2
EH Bairaq-3
EH Shammar-2
El Ashkar-2
El Gamill-2
El Hadiyyah-2
El Halimaar-5
El Majara-1
El Majiid-5
El Mourad-1
El Norus-2
El Shahhdai-1
El Ward-2
EM Sundance Kid-1
Emir El Hadid-1
ERAF Emptahar-1
ESA Nisrs Adhara-1
Fadaan Emir-1
Fadrian CMC-2
Farid Nile Moon-8
Farres-1
Faydin-1
Gatsby CC-13
Georgie Boy-2
Glenglade Sadat-1
GR Shadow-1
Hadaya Abu Dalal-1
Halameer-1
Haliluyah MH-1
Halim Bah Moniet-1
Halim El Imen-1
Halim El Mansour-1
Halim Valentino-2
Hallanny Mistanny-1
Harakka-2
Hawkeye CC-3
Haziz Halim-4
HD Midnight Haziz-2
Hehtif-4
Hemaya Ilahiyya-1
HF El Cid-3
Hi-Fashion Mareek-2
HMT El Markib-1
HMT Virginius-2
HR Ahmar Shaitaan-1
HS Hero-3
HS Tadeusz-1
Hyksos-1
Ibn Amon RA-1
Ibn El Hilal-2
Ibn El Tareef-1
Ibn Layalia-1
Ibn Mameluck-2
Ibn Ser Hannah-1
Ibn Shai-1
Imaann-2
Immell-3
Imperial Al Kamar—6
Imperial Baarez-14
Imperial Imdal-5
Imperial Saheeb-5
Imtaarif-8
Imtut-2
Infidels Design-2
Jasadd-5
JF Asaddi Bai-1
JPJ Noshai-5
Jubilee Halima-1
JY Ebon Mareekh-2
Kamal El Nefous-1
Kazmeen Ibn Shiko-1
KH Seral Sireff-1
Khebir An Nil-1
Khial Ibn Morafic-3
KRH Amir Elbataa-1
Kuy Shaikh Khan-1
LA Ibn Blackhalim-4
Liberty Prince-1
LS Thee Bahim-4
Maarauder MH-2
Mahroufs Image-1
Mahroufs Sahleel-2
Mahrus Kahil-1
Makhnificient KA-5
Makhxximum KA –4
Markee Amir-1
Marquis I-4
Marty Hazlim-2
Masada Aslani-1
Masada Bay Serr-2
Masada Muussaad-1
Matara Fa Daalim-1
MB Talman-7
MC Starstruk-2
Meadow Mahonri-1
Medinna Maximus-1
Midnight Amir-1
Midnight Bahim-1
Mohummed Sadden-2
Moniet El Badi-1
Moniet Rafis-1
Nafis Moniet-1
Nagsous-2
Nahabi El Pharo-1
Nasralle Moniet-2
Nigmh-1
Nile Kharma-1
Nile Raven-2
Odysseus HF-1
Orashan-1
Orfan Bey-1
PH Promiscuous-1
Pimlico RCA-6
Prince Rex-4
Princeton Faaris-1
Qahtahn-6
Qursaan-1
R G Jadir-1
Ramses Boomerang-1
Ravenwood Desire-1
Ravenwood Majesty-3
Ravenwood Monee-1
Ravenwood Mujid-1
Ravenwood Qahtahn-2
Ravenwood Saiga-1
Ravenwood Shai An-1
RB Shah Mareekh-1
RBA Black Halimaar-2
RCF El Sid-1
REA Asif-3
RHR Safar-2
Richteous-1
Richter MH-1
RLA Sonadal-1
RTA Storm-1
Ru Negem Sharouf-1
Ruala Kaleef-1
Ruminaja Fayez-5
RZA Orientexpress-2
SA Maximum Effect-2
Saareef-1
Sah Hasim Khabar-1
Saud Ebon Emir-2
Saud El Ameer-4
Scherezade Midnight-2
SDA Al Ahad-2
Sensai-1
Serenity Aristu-2
Serenity Galil-1
Serenity Ibcar-1
Serenity Lazan-1
Serenity Shahail-1
Serenity Shamalik-1
Serenity Touchan-1
Serr el Rou-1
SF Untouchable-3
SH Gazhal-2
Shahdal-2
Shahhh El Morafic-1
Shahin el Masr-1
Shahir IASB-9
Shaikh Al Shamal-3
Shaikh el Sherif-1
Shais Legend-1
Shalim El Saghira-1
Sheikh El Shaakir-2
Sherif El Moniet-1
Shezada El Ciffar-1
SI Enshallah-2
SI Inspiration-1
Simeon Sedek-7
Simeon Shai-4
Sir Habbas Pasha-3
Sir Shane CH-1
Snowlion RSI-2
Son of the Sands-2
Sonboleekh-3
SS Sheenas Prince-1
Star of Sirius-1
Starr Gate-1
Sterling Vision-1
Summerwood Shai-2
Sunset Kariim-1
SW Hallany Shai-1
Taher Sihr-1
Tajhan-1
Tammens Kismet-2
Tcheser Billa Bay-1
TCP Rada Bazaz-4
TFR Texas Playboy-2
TH Babylon-1
TH Midnight Rider-1
The Apostolos-2
The Atticus-1
The Elixir-1
The Mentor-3
The Messenger-1
The Minstril-6
The Mohave-2
The Prime Prince-3
The Shamin-2
The Source CC-6
Thee Al Badi-2
Thee Asil-11
Thee Black Majic-2
Thee Desperado-47
Thee Epic-1
Thee Federali-1
Thee Gambler-4
Thee Infidel-26
Thee Jazzman-1
Thee Matador-1
Thee Outlaw-1
Thee Pharaoh-2
Thee Rasmoniet-3
Thee Rebel-3
Thee Sundance Kid-1
Theprime Minstril-2
Theshowdownlegacy-1
True Colours-5
TSEA Magick-2
Via Con Dios-2
VP Regal Heir-2
WDA Fandango Moon-3
WDA Orion-3
WG Priority One-3
WHF Ahtetam-1
Windbridge-1
WK Casis Elnoir-1
WP Amir Rasheek-2
WW Sudimon-3
WWA Kurafi-4
WWA Tahriki-1
Zandai Ibn Omar-6
ZT Ali Baba-1
ZT Faa iq-1

All that said, these are the even more important questions you've asked:

QUOTE
And if such study were done, or we knew which lines were "thin" (as others have commented) would it change how anyone breeds? Would anyone care? Is it realistic to think breeders would cooperate to assure genetic diversity? What is the difference between "producing" from a closed gene pool and "preserving?"
and I have to ask you a question: While you or anyone else from your organization are out on the road at the DH Booth in various places, what do you see? People who are willing to work together? Or people that are divisive? People interested in preserving varied sire lines or people hell-bent on breeding 35 lines to Nazeer (not a bad thing, but does nothing for diversity)?

From my little corner of the world I see a few people that are pretty passionate about the SE and it's future, about preserving vigor and vitality, but does that really matter if we are singing to the choir - if our bloodline organizations don't take the lead? I venture no. So what can we do to help?

Organizing a list of who has what, where and how much more can be expected from them may be a great place to start. Incentives are excellent tools to use to get people to do something that the masses aren't doing already. SPEAH's concept would work in preservation efforts IF you could get someone to run it who would place horses without favoritism giving every one that wanted to preserve a specific dam line or sire line the opportunity to do so. Horses would have to be made available for use in this endeavor and I'm not at all sure who would want to take that monster on. What I've found with some "preservationist" type efforts, is their unwillingness to share their bloodstock or stallions - just couldn't figure out how that PRESERVED anything (don't understand the rationale at all). That may be too involved. Perhaps a presentation of those shriking mare and sire lines based on factual information would be helpful and those interested in trying to preserve could go about doing so with a semblence of organization rather than chaos. Just thinking out loud. I'll stew on it over a brewsky and see if I can't come up with something other than hot air! biggrin.gif

Kind Regards,

Liz
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rjquick
post Nov 6 2007, 02:33 AM
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Hello, I am new to this list. Just wanted to see what is happening in some of the forums. I couldn't agree more with the person who said that we need to expand our reach to people who want horses that we have. That would mean sacrificing your price, in order to get the horse into a good home, with people or a person who loves it. Consider it the price you have to pay for getting the breed out there, and known by the public. I have done it myself, just sold a beautiful filly for a song, to get her to people who appreciate the mystique of the pure arab, but don't have tons of money. I think in the end, if you give to a cause, you will reap benefits of the cause.
RJQ
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Dieter
post Nov 6 2007, 02:46 AM
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Welcome RJ!

QUOTE
Hello, I am new to this list. Just wanted to see what is happening in some of the forums. I couldn't agree more with the person who said that we need to expand our reach to people who want horses that we have. That would mean sacrificing your price, in order to get the horse into a good home, with people or a person who loves it. Consider it the price you have to pay for getting the breed out there, and known by the public. I have done it myself, just sold a beautiful filly for a song, to get her to people who appreciate the mystique of the pure arab, but don't have tons of money. I think in the end, if you give to a cause, you will reap benefits of the cause.
RJQ
A person after my own heart - absolutely agreed. Now, give it up, what's your real name biggrin.gif Aahhemm, allow me to introduce myself.

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC
Straight Egyptian Competitors dot com

Hope you'll continue with us and offer your insights - fresh perspectives are always welcomed!

Liz
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rjquick
post Nov 6 2007, 04:20 AM
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You are so right, Cheryl, in saying that these horses need to be promoted everywhere there are people who could possibly be interested in one is reading. This is a very helpful kind of post. This is the sort of thing that will solve our problems. If the AHA leadership won't advertise like this, then other leaders need to be elected, who will. There won't be any horses to preserve if they aren't bred, and in order to breed, we have to sell.
RJQ
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Mike
post Nov 6 2007, 10:52 AM
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In many respects it isn’t the number of mares being bred that matters so much as the sires that they are bred to! After all back in the 1950’s the US was in danger of losing its asil mares simply because they were being bred to stallions outside of their own group(s) and the number of asil foals being born almost hit single figures. The current situation is I feel analogous, in that whilst there are a good number of high quality mares (and sires) those mares and stallions are not being “replaced” even when those same mares are having SE foals. Just as there was a considerable danger of unique and irreplaceable asil lines being absorbed into the general Arabian population fifty years ago, today the same sort of thing is happening with the SE population which becomes more homogenous with each passing year. This is not just a matter of preserving “tight” breeding groups such as the straight Babsons, and other rare non-Nazeer lines as well as those Nazeer lines and damlines that are becoming very thin on the ground. In order to fully promote and maintain the vigour of our SE’s we also need to preserve the “blends” and “crosses” since without encouraging those breeders who are doing this successfully; their knowledge and skill will be lost to us forever! Whilst preserving and maintaining the tightly bred breeding groups benefits everyone in the long term, if we lose the ability to cross them skilfully, then we will be akin to someone who never having baked in their lives, finds themselves in a state of the art kitchen, with all the ingredients to make a perfect cake .... but no cookbook to guide them. We need both kinds of breeder and both kinds of horse if we truly wish to leave a lasting and viable legacy for future generations. One cannot breed an Al Adeed Al Shaqab, an Al Lahab or a Thee Desperado without access to the distinct and differing bloodlines that went into their genetic makeup, the “mainstream” is every bit as dependant on diversity in the long term as those preserving the rare and unusual.
Neither rose-tinted glasses nor navel-gazing are going to provide much in the way of vision for the future. Fortunately I believe that there are both enough breeders and horses to make a difference and bring about a better future than the one that is currently on the cards, despite a plethora of stunning photos and horses.
In short, given that we have a limited and closed group of horses that we can breed from, then we have two options for the medium to longer term, either we act to maintain the diversity that we currently just about have whilst the chance to do so still exists. Or in ten years or thereabouts we change the definition so that we can continue breeding worthwhile horses that will be SE (as now)+ some other asil lines. The alternative is stagnation and a long slow decline and the Event really will be the “Special Olympics” held exclusively for also-rans!! The choice is ours.
This isn’t just about type or beauty or conformation or performance, it’s about being able to produce and REPRODUCE the complete package. In this “post big farm era”, cooperation amongst smaller breeders is the only way that any kind of leadership or guidance or education can possibly emerge.
Mike
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Dieter
post Nov 6 2007, 11:53 AM
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Excellent post Mike.

Liz
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Ralph
post Nov 6 2007, 01:10 PM
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Hi Mike and everyone participating in this discussion smile.gif :

I appreciate your post Mike and the wisdom that made way for the words you share in this discussion. You hit a nerve and many of the thoughts that this discussion has created in my mind. smile.gif

My concern has always been for the new life that horse breeders are responsible for creating. And I don't believe that the value that horse breeders assign to life, is not much different than the way in which our society values all life. I think the horse industry is way overdue for a "life overhaul", don't you agree? Why do any of us breed horses? As I get older and I become more aware of the horses that for some reason or another fell on hard times and are not currently appreciated or loved, where is the breeder that made the decision to bring this life into the world and why is this person no longer as excited about this horse, as they were when they were planning the breeding? It is hard not to be discouraged as a human being first, and a horse lover second, when you know that there are so many good horses for sale, for adoption, for rescue and we are part of a culture that encourages people to breed more, more, more without taking care of all of the ones who have already been created?

I think we are all smart enough to recognize that the lower numbers for Arabian Horses are indicative of change in the larger world of horses and we can no longer afford to repeat the same behaviors of the past. I would hope as we move forward and embrace the changes, that we will embrace them as a more responsible, more compassionate community because the breed will not survive, if we are less than that.

Ralph
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BaileyArabians
post Nov 6 2007, 02:07 PM
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By the way, one reason for the sharp drop in registrations in 2007, is that remember in 2006 there was a really hot horrible summer and almost no-one could get their mares pregnant.

I remember because it's was painful financially and otherwise for me that year and I had nothing to show for it.

For the most part I don't believe it was a decision reflecting a weak market. I think the mares just couldn't get knocked up because it was hot out.

Kathy
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Suellen Taylor
post Nov 6 2007, 02:18 PM
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Ralph..your post has not fallen on deaf ears..thank you!!

I see this every day, am a little guilty myself, but I also follow-up on all my sold horses..know what they are doing, and where they are...and often wish I had a couple of them back..LOL

Someone said in a thread recently, that in order to breed, we must sell..cannot keep thm all. I enjoy the breeding, the caring for of the mares, and the birthing/raising-up of the foals. But the market ..or lack thereof..has caused a lot of us to slow down.

And thank you, Kelly, for those numbers..and what is the average age of the mares that are currently breeding? blink.gif

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
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Eyegor
post Nov 6 2007, 02:44 PM
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Great post Ralph,
all of us must think about our responsibility to that we create and it is something we have done ever since we have started breeding. Not a single horse has ever been abandoned here and all are followed thru every step of their life. We have repossessed some and found new homes for others and in general anything we breed has a home here for life. we limit ourselves to a maximum of 10 horses. The number we can comfortably support and will reduce that to 5. With three stallions and 5 mares that allows us to raise two foals every year, yet since we do not sell foals, rather sell them as older horses with good basics that means a foal every two to three years. If we don't sell we don't breed. We do not get 20 or 30 K and are happy to get between 3 to 6K for very well conformed horses with some rather rare pedigrees. However for us, every foal is intended to better both parents not just to produce more of the same....and then present them as wonder horses.
The machinations of false advertising and threats of euthanasia to find affluent buyers is unconscionable, especially when additional excessive breeding is then carried on. It is a descending spiral in the welfare of the horses and is a question of ethics. Luckily that is not a usual practice and most of us show compassion and a true love for our horses. I know for a fact that I do.
Just my own opinion...
joe
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Echo1
post Nov 6 2007, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Suellen Taylor @ Nov 6 2007, 03:18 PM)
And thank you, Kelly, for those numbers..and what is the average age of the mares that are currently breeding? blink.gif

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Hi Suellen,

Last time I looked, about 5-6 years ago, the average age of a broodmare in production was aged 15.
From what I am seeing now, the average age of a broodmare in production is aged 11 years. Which is great news.
Or another way to look at it is, most foals born are born to dams at the age of 11.

This statistic was acquired when looking at the global population of SE mares. To refine this to a purely US statistic would be very difficult for me to do at this time. sad.gif
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Suellen Taylor
post Nov 6 2007, 04:19 PM
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Thanks Kelly..I guess I am a little above average then.. tongue.gif

With 6 active broodmares currently..their average age is 9 with an average number of 4 foals.

I do have to slow down for a while tho..still have two of the four senoritas..LOL
with 5 foals expected in 2008..two planned for 2009.

I appreciate the time it takes to do all the calculations..thanks again!

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Nadj al Nur
post Nov 6 2007, 04:44 PM
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Good post Ralph, and one of the reasons that I am reluctant to breed. Only have room for a limited amount of horses and really worry about where they are going to go.Even if you do sell them to a good home, there is no guarantee that they will stay there.
This is why I think education is so important. Should be like having a drivers liscence before you get to drive a car.....you should have to pass some sort of basic horse handling test to purchase a horse.......yeah, I know, the logistics would be horrendous, but it sure would be better for the horses.......
Cathy
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Echo1
post Nov 6 2007, 05:10 PM
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No problem, anything for you, Suellen, and I do miss the senioritas.
Actually, we'll be in Georgia in February , and hope to see you and Allison of Talaria if possible .

Be well, and keep up the great work with your horses. biggrin.gif
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2mntn
post Nov 6 2007, 08:53 PM
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Hello MIKE,

You said a mouthful on that last post. biggrin.gif Although you are quite clear, it is still taking me several readings to digest the important points and I'm still not sure I have it.

One thing that did stick in my mind is what you said about "changing definition". This would solve some issues, but is it something that would ever be implemented and who would implement it?

How would the current diversity in the SE population be maintained? Would this not require an oversight organization? An analysis of horse pedigrees and who owns them and what their personal objectives are? Would this not require a master plan? And a large, well-funded organization? Perhaps a combination of the Asil Club, Pyramid Society, Al Khamsa, SOFI and Registry groups? (Or perhaps a new registry which provides the stud book service and stays out of the show arena?) Would this not require stallion licensing, planned and approved mating, mandatory gelding, genetics control, breeding methods controls and a myriad of details that would require co-operation among fiercely independent operators? Would this not require that each operation with a specific objective have a guaranteed operating income in perpetuity?

Here is a fictional, yet possible scenario. You want to breed your boy, Classic-Maidan to one of his own daughters as it is your opinion that this is the right way, and the only way to preserve those lines. You apply for approval and are subsequently denied permission. If you disobey, you will not be able to register your foal and you may be suspended and your operating budget taken away.

I would like to see something change. But I fear the change needed will require something radical and very expensive.

Just a few miscellaneous thoughts,
Ray
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