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mckulley1
The last poll I did I felt was wonderful. So much chatting and good commentary. Thought I'd give this a whorl.

Lets talk in "theory" here.

Say there is a mare, of fabulous breeding, fabulous conformation with Arabian type. Excellent show record. Proven dam of previous foals and those foals have been SCID clear. You love the idea of utilizing this mare. You've been given the opportunity to breeding lease this mare.

BUT

She's an SCID carrier.

Financial output: You will invest in a stud fee for yourself to a clear stallion, and give one to the owner of the mare for themselves. You will pay for board, insurance, and vet fees. Eventual transport of the foal to your own farm.

Goal of breeding this cross: This would be purely an investment purpose with intent to sell. Hope would be to at least break even. Unless the individual produced is someone you could just not live with out.

Lets hear what you think! laugh.gif
mckulley1
IF you vote "Maybe" lets here what keeps you on the fence!
DeeAllen
Sorry Amanda, no fence here. A Big NO. rolleyes.gif
Chiron
As a "survivor" of the pre-test. witch hunt days, & a breeder whos herd produced DEAD FOALS, sad.gif I feel comfortable weighing in with an opinion. tongue.gif

If the mare is the quality & type you are looking for & the stallion is tested clear....there is absolutly NO reason not to breed her biggrin.gif You know you will not have the expense & heartbreak of a dying foal. The worst case is the foal will be a carrier ohmy.gif but otherwise perhaps the "horse of your dreams". Planned breedings (of course from only superior individuals) & testing should allow for at least 50% (ahhhh ,,, those "law of averages") clear foals @ each generation. rolleyes.gif

I know, also, that the SCID gene could be eleminted in one generation by testing every thing & never breeding a carrier, PERIOD. However if one considers the very superior animals that are/were carriers & totally wipe them out of the gene pool.......we could/would endup with the potential for much worse genetic faults & an even smaller breeding population.

Even in the "dark ages" I would much rather breed to a superior horse & pray for the best than end up with a mediocre to poor animal I'd have to feed for 30 years wink.gif just to be sure I didn't get a SCID blink.gif

I know a lot of people are very, very outspoken about their feelings that carriers should never be bred & in pre-testing days for the sake of the poor doomed babies I can agree.
Now, with testing, there is no reason to ever lose another foal to SCID.

Right now the Egyptian/Egyptian related breeders are at EXACTLY the same place with Lavender Foal Syndrome as we all were with SCID in the 1970's. The unfortunate thing is we are all behaving the same way.....refusing to face it head on & NAME NAMES so intelligent breeding choices can be made blink.gif

If it feels right to you.....Do it smile.gif

P.S THE reason I went to Egyptians in the first place was to escape the heartbreak SCID.
Now I can't see myself,ever having non-Asils. They are so special rolleyes.gif
Acorn Arabians
NO NO NO.
quite simply there are enough problems in breeding as it is without deliberately causing more. sad.gif
gbfahne.gif
jack's arabians
Definitively NO ! Before my pleasure, I think to the future live of the baby ... No additional risk ! so many problems can happened when a mare give birth !!
amarie
tkr9
No. The risk is not really fair on future generations, and it's an unecessary one as there are loads of SCID free mares out there. An SCID carrier can be just as happy being a normal horse, being ridden out, competing, hunting, it doesn't have to be bred from just because it's a champion gal!
Mirkayan
hoi,
YES!!........
I would!!!....but with a clear stallion !!!

greetings sas.
Wendy B
Amanda,

Since your goal is purely as an investment, I would vote no. Obviously there is still enough of a stigma to make some buyers turn away. If you were breeding for a replacement filly from a cherished line or simply breeding to keep the resulting offspring in your herd then I would vote yes.

Wendy
barbara.gregory
I voted "maybe" as the mating was for financial reasons, not something I would do! However, if I did it would have to be financially viable so the cost of transport, stud fees, keep etc would be the deciding factor. Also, the stallion would have to a non carrier and I would have to be pretty sure that the breeding was "fashionable" and marketable.

In the real world I breed for myself rather than fashion or markets so that question is unlikely to arise but I would not rule out a carrier stallion for my mare if he was exactly what I wanted in every way and there wasn't an equal stallion who was SCIDs clear, so long as my mare was not a carrier.
Bbarbara

gbfahne.gif
JANGuest
I personally would not breed any scid carrier but I think it is worse to have a stallion breeding as a carrier than a mare.
Guest
I would go a step further that not breeding a SCID-carrier - if it were my choice, I would have all SCID-carriers banned from breeding.

Radical? Perhaps, but SCID isn't just an unsightly trait - it is a scourge, a deadly plague of our beloved breed. It should be eliminated, not just avoided! As long as some breeders believe that it is not necessary to test for SCID because they think their preferred bloodlines are immune, or simply think SCID is a rare occurence which only happens in other people's horses, there will continue to be dead foals. No single stallion or mare ANYWHERE is worth more than the health (and reputation) of the whole breed.

As far as I know, the Belgium studbook refuses to register carrier stallions.

Please forgive me posting anonymously, I usually don't, but I fear my opinion would cause me to be flamed...
An American Breeder
I really don't approve of any SCID carrier being bred; that said, we do have a few outstanding horses that have been carriers that I know of.

Should a carrier by bred the opposite parent must be tested SCID clean and then I believe that a requirement of every carrier parent be that before any offspring can be registered each and every offspring must be tested for SCID. If the resulting foal is a SCID carrier, then their papers must be marked SCID carrier.

Many, most foals are not tested; the reasoning they can only be a carrier. The foal is sold, some unsuspecting soul who has never heard of SCID breeds the foal and the horrid disease just brings more heartbreak and more destructive results for the breed.
Guest
QUOTE
Radical? Perhaps, but SCID isn't just an unsightly trait - it is a scourge, a deadly plague of our beloved breed. It should be eliminated, not just avoided! As long as some breeders believe that it is not necessary to test for SCID because they think their preferred bloodlines are immune, or simply think SCID is a rare occurence which only happens in other people's horses, there will continue to be dead foals. No single stallion or mare ANYWHERE is worth more than the health (and reputation) of the whole breed.



OH MY GOSH, THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING. EVERYBODY RUN, SAVE YOURSELVES!!!




I'll bet you're from the same gene pool of people that were afraid for man to go over 60 mph because nobody could predict what might happen to them. They might melt or warp or something. If you don't have the good sense to understand how to deal with a simple problem, just stay out of the way and let those more capable do it.
Guest
no way
Hoogie
Yes, if the mare was everything I wanted, then I would breed from her - to a SCID free stallion of course. I would be honest with the buyer of the foal, that there was the foal had a 50% chance of being a SCID carrier. Either that or I would test the foal and be done with it. If this meant that potential buyers ran scared, then so be it. A person who has done their homework will come along eventually.

I am in favour of SCID testing at the same time as DNA testing foals for registration.... then everyone knows where they stand and can make informed decisons. Example - people get alot of flack from standing SCID carrier stallions, but I for one have never SCID tested my mares - not fair to those who have bothered to test their horses! It seems that by saying 'no' to SCID carriers we are actually discouraging breeders from testing their horses and encouraging them to "hope" their horses are okay. wink.gif
jamat
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Mar 27 2005, 01:13 AM)
She's an SCID carrier.

Financial output: You will invest in a stud fee for yourself to a clear stallion, and give one to the owner of the mare for themselves. You will pay for board, insurance, and vet fees. Eventual transport of the foal to your own farm.

Goal of breeding this cross: This would be purely an investment purpose with intent to sell. Hope would be to at least break even. Unless the individual produced is someone you could just not live with out.

Lets hear what you think!  laugh.gif

Hi
Purely on an investment level i would not do this mating as knowing the mare was SCID I would be testing the foal before puting it up for sale.
Wether we like it or not being a SCID carrier does limit your market, so if the foal was SCID posative then it would make the goal of breaking even on two breeding fees, mare care and vet fees all the harder.
On the other hand if i was breeding with this mare for my own purposes i would have no problem doing the mating, as with the test you can make informed decisions and being a carrier does not affect the health of a horse, and their are plenty of SCID clear stallions around.
Cheers jo
barbara.gregory
Dear Guest

You sholdn't feel that you can't post your name; we are all entitled to our opinion and while I don't necessarily agree with you I respect your view and and have no problem with it. It would certainly get rid of SCID but I think it might also get rid of some valuable bloodlines and exquisite horses with a lot to give to the breed.

My friend has a Versace colt (SCIDs free) who I am sure will be quite a force at stud, this will be his first breeding season. If Versace had been gelded a lot of lovely SCIDs free offspring of his would not be around. Yes, I agree, some carriers would also not be around! I respect Versace's owners for being upfront about his status. How many others have tested their stallions and when the result is not what they want just kept quiet? Most don't test at all.

We should all be able to able to state our opinion and be polite to others who have different views from our own.

Regards

Barbara
gbfahne.gif
dahncer
QUOTE
personally would not breed any scid carrier but I think it is worse to have a stallion breeding as a carrier than a mare


Sorry to disagree with you here..but last year in two regions that I know of, six of the top ten horses and then a few going on to Nationals were Versace colts...some people are breeding to a carrier.

I breed to him, and will continue to do so..having two lovely colts, both winners in the show rings..and hoping for a filly with this years breeding. One is a carrier, one is not..and both are listed and posted for everyone to see. Should the foal be a filly and be a carrier, I will breed her to any tested clear stallion, including my own SE's.

QUOTE
respect Versace's owners for being upfront about his status. How many others have tested their stallions and when the result is not what they want just kept quiet? Most don't test at all


And Barbara....I quite agree with you! I have my tests in hand for pending foals, and the results, as I said, are immediately sent in..I have nothing to be ashamed of.

One of the colts...first show entering arena...amateur photo!
barbara.gregory
A nice colt, Suellen, I hope he and his brother produce well for you.

I think Guest's point is that a mare has a very limited number of offspring whereas a stallion can (and in Versace's case does) sire a large number of foals thereby expanding the SCIDs carrier numbers.

At the end of the day it comes down to what each one of us thinks and how we want our breeding program to go. To breed to a poor quality SCIDs carrier would be a terrible shame but, as we don't know who the carriers are in most cases, it must happen as there are are alot of second rate stallions around! I would rather use a top class carrier than a poor quality non carrier.

Barbara
tonelygren
Definately a YES, if the mare is such a good mare, and the stallion is clear. This is an easy disease to track as it is single-gened recessive and possible to test for. So producing a new carrier would only mean that you for another generation would have to keep on using a clear stallion. There is absolutely NO RISK of getting a sick foal. It would be silly to stop using all SCID-carriers, as that would produce a genetic "bottle-neck", which could be alot more fatal than having some SCID carriers in the population.

BUT, I do feel that only SCID-carriers that have other above-average good qualities should be used. As that means we, in time, would be rid of the carriers (as half of their foals will be non-carriers).

-Tone smile.gif
Pashon2001
I also agree with others that I would rather use a top class carrier stallion than a second rate clear one. I think personally that most people never have their mares tested for SCID unless they are the result of a known carrier mating. Mine arent tested, although one of my mares is going to be tested this year after a fairly close relative produced a dead foal known to be SCID. If she proves to be a carrier (and I hope not) I would still breed her to a clear horse, some bloodlines need to be preserved and hers is one of them.
I am this year having all my stallions tested, this is purely for my own peace of mind as my horses arent offered to outside stud.
Chiron
Exactly Barbara. biggrin.gif
We, as breeders, can not afford to limit our gene pool any more than it already is tongue.gif
It goes without saying that EVERY foal from a known or suspect carrier should be tested at birth. wink.gif

Next question from an always cash poor person.....how much more would you be willing to spend to have the SCID test done @ registration (no playing games with test samples) & the results printed on the papers???? rolleyes.gif

PS to guest "chicken little" HaHaHaHa you got that one right tongue.gif

Or my favorite T shirt: Gene Police......YOU, out of the pool!!!!
dahncer
QUOTE
as there are are alot of second rate stallions around! I would rather use a top class carrier than a poor quality non carrier.


AMEN, Barbara....totally agree with the difference regarding mares and stallions....and thank you about my colt(s).

I have a non-SE mare, who will definitely be tested, should I opt to breed this fellow to her.

Quick questions, tho..and I think I studied this stuff fairly well, before making my decisions..and so here they are:

Someone said their SCID foal was born dead...didn't think SCID foals would pass until removed from their dam? Perhaps there were other things happening with this foal, and SCID was blamed?

Thank you!
Aimbri
Very interesting and thought-provoking thread!

Maybe some of you can help me? I have been told that the SE lines are SCID clear. Is that true, or have I been lulled into a false sense of security?

Many years ago I had a premature foal die of pneumonia (he was about 4 days old). There was NO test for carriers at the time, but I was able to have the foal tested post-mortum - at that time a very expensive test - which came back negative. The foal WAS a SE and another vet later told me that I had wasted my money, as the SE lines are all clear!

What are the facts?

Jeannette
Guest
Aimbri, I fear you've opened a can of worms there...

Many SE breeders will tell you that there is no SCID in SE lines. I cannot tell you if this is correct. But a few years ago, a well-known Austrian vet posted in this forum that two mares of his had been tested positive as SCID carriers. Needless to say, he was attacked and flamed by other breeders.

The problem is that, because they believe SE's are SCID-free anyway, many SE breeders don't bother testing at all. Of course this is rather paradox - if you don't test, of course you don't have any horses tested positive!

I honestly can't tell you if SCID exists in SE's. But my opinion is as long as many breeding horses are untested, nobody can safely say that it doesn't exist. I think a conscientious breeder would always test his horses prior to breeding, no matter what bloodline. The test is not that expensive, a dead foal on the other hand costs a lot of money and heartbreak.
Pashon2001
QUOTE
Someone said their SCID foal was born dead


Sorry when I said the relative of my mare produced a dead foal, I didnt mean it literally! The foal died within a few days of birth. The owner of the mare had a post mortem done and her mare tested. The stallion owner (the grandsire of my mare) refused to have his horse tested but he must have been a carrier too.
I am not an expert of SCID but I have been told by a veterinary surgeon that any foal with SCID (not carrier foals) will die within 6 months of birth, usually quite quickly, they have virtually no immune system and quickly fall prey to colds etc which progress to pneumonia.
barbara.gregory
A foal who dies within a few weeks of birth has not died of SCIDs, he has died either because he did not receive colostrum from the mare or an overwhelming infection etc. A foal does not start making it's own antibodies to fight disease until it is about 3-4 months old, it receives the vital antibodies to protect it for the first months of life from it's dam's colstrum. If the mare runs milk for a few days before the foal is born the colostrum may be lost and also some mares do not have "good" colostrum for various reasons or the foal received the colostrum too late and it was not absorbed through the gut wall: It must receive the colostrum within twelve hours but ideally within a couple of hours of birth, after that the "holes" in the gut wall to allow the antibodies through close and they can no longer be absorbed..

SCID's foals die at roghly 3 to 5months of age so although a SCIDs foal may die at birth or shortly afterwards that is not the cause of death and only a test will tell you if the foal would eventually have died of SCIDs.

Barbara
blackcrackarabian
i would say yes i know some people in the usa who had there mares and stallions scid tested all where ok BUT one of there offsprings was tested a carrie so they had his full brother test and he was tested ok ive been told before that the scid gene can jump a generation ??? i think breeding to horses that have bad legs boxy feet bad manners and so on? these u can c in the get ?? scid u cant c and they might not of the mensioned probelems i know which id like to see on my horses ?? tongue.gif
dahncer
Thank you, Barbara..and other important facts regarding SCID can be found and studied at Arabian F.O.A.L. Association..and this site also includes where and how to order tests, and the SCID list.

(F.O.A.L. stands for "fight off arabian lethals".) I suppose I get tired of foal deaths being put into an all-inclusive category..when there are so many reasons...if you recall, even the West Nile Virus shot was being blamed for deaths a while back.

As Barbara says, colostrum from the mare is the key, and protective management of the foaling stall helps also. Don't forget that navel dip! laugh.gif

Happy foaling to everyone..and happy, healthy foals to all! biggrin.gif

PS..and to keep the can of worms open for a moment..there are a GREAT deal of SE owners, who truly believe there is no SCID within their community...unless you test..how can you be sure? they actually get hostile if asked. sad.gif
guest breeder
QUOTE
Many, most foals are not tested; the reasoning they can only be a carrier. The foal is sold, some unsuspecting soul who has never heard of SCID breeds the foal and the horrid disease just brings more heartbreak and more destructive results for the breed.
FROM: An American Breeder


Regarding SCID in Any Arabian bloodline, including Straight Egyptians.
Yes. The person who replied that he HAD SE Arabian SCID carriers in his herd, also supplied his horses names, pedigrees & registration numbers, and he is a VET in Europe.

I do believe it is in all Arabians. The man's name, if I remember correctly, was "Dr. Enno", as someone else may remember better than me. The test is so simple..... why not test before breeding or advertising at stud to the public.

Regarding the "quote" above.........

When we have people coming to us for breeding with outside mares, we always recommend the mare owner spends the first $100 ($99 through www.foal.org) on a SCID test, before going any further in any testing for mare exams, or anything else. Our horses are tested Clear, but we started thinking about mares we would breed who might be CARRIERS....... thus perhaps having a CARRIER foal with OUR stallion's name on it as a sire.
Think about it------BOTH parents have to be "assumed" to be carriers UNTIL both are tested to show otherwise.


We do not agree in passing the SCID Carrier gene along any further, and for those people selecting from a "special" stallion who IS a carrier, then perhaps only select those SONS to breed from who are NOT carriers, since any "popular" stallion has more impact on reflooding the market ( by the HUNDREDS) with more carriers than any mare that is a carrier.


Last year a lady contacted us about breeding for her first foal. She wanted to breed her mare to our SE stallion, but her mare was not a SE and had lines "I" suspect as high possibilities of SCID Carriers. We recommended the testing and she DID go through the SCID testing process. She was scheduled to come to our farm, after seeing two other stallions on the same day.

The night before she was due to come, she called on the phone and said a HUGE "THANK YOU", as she cried on the phone. She must have said that to me 5 times, and told me we were the only ones to suggest she test her mare for SCID before breeding. She then told me she would not be coming for a visit, as she received her test results that day and was terribly upset to find that her mare was a SCID CARRIER. She was so upset because she bought her from a "BIG" breeder, who KNEW she wanted to breed the mare she purchased, and they never told her that their horses were SCID Carriers.


As she was getting over being "crushed", she was seeking an attorney, because she felt so "taken" by the breeder who sold her the mare. She was devastated, even though our stallions were Clear, she was not going to take a chance on producing 50% Carriers.

For Breeders who stand stallions at public stud.....
WHAT do you tell mare owners who ask you specifically about SCID ?
Personally, I won't breed to an outside stallion if he does not have a SCID status report. If the stallion owner says it is a waste of money I volunteer to pay for the test through www.foal.org for $99.

Why shouldn't breeders test the stallion, if they stand him at public stud ?

Not every mare owner that is coming to breed to your stallion is going to be SE & "presumed " to be a non Carrier.

I find it is a terrible disservice to mare owners -to not test (& reveal the results).

Noone can tell me that they don't BLOW $99, at any time in a stallion's breeding career, to not justify testing. One Vet visit is more than that, for a Coggins test & yearly vaccinations.

For the lady who is making an INVESTMENT and considering breeding a CARRIER:
It is your money, after all, but after what I just cited, I would hope that you fully disclose the Carrier/Non Carrier status of the sire and dam, and have the foal tested, before selling & tell the purchaser the results of all 3.

I would not knowingly buy a SCID Carrier unless it was a gelding or mare used in riding only, and never to be bred from.

For that reason alone, I think the SCID test should be attached to registration, and fully disclosed.

Arabians can pass through many hands in their lifetimes, and each "new" owner may want to breed a mare who is a SCID Carrier or a LFS Carrier, and never know that the mare HAD a SCID "dead" foal or a "dead" Lavendar foal. There is still no test for the other Arabian lethals, as far as I am aware, but we have a test which is reasonably priced for SCID.

Guest breeder
Aimbri
Thank you all.

You have won me over. I WAS lulled into a false sense of security by my Vet. I guess even Vets can be wrong! I was ASSURED that my horses were negative, but I will definitely be checking the SCID status on all my horses and "Yes", I agree that it should be on a horse's registration papers, and thereby, no more SCID carriers would be sold without the buyer being aware of it.

Jeannette
encore
You definitely have been lulled into a false sense of security...every line can have it, there's no buts about it...any breeder who thinks they are immune is in denial. My mare's breeder actually helped to identify SCIDs and develop the SCIDs test.

Someone mentioned that hardly anyone tests their stallions-I find that to not be true, at least with the big time stallions-look through the AHW or AHT-seems like the vast majority are labelled "SCID Clear". Actually the majority of the ones who are not labelled as such are SE. Interesting, eh?

Oh, and I wanted to ask/share something interesting with you all-appropriate that this topic came up when it did. I read an article in the International Arabian Horse magazine (previously IAHA's small publication, now just the Arabian Horse Magazine which comes with all memberships to AHA). I should have written down the date of the magazine, but I didn't-anyways, this article came out right when the SCIDs test had been developed and available for use/purchase. So I would guess it would be around 1997. Anyhow-they mentioned in the herd of horses that they used for the test, they produced a SCIDs-afflicted foal. They were able to successfully implement a bone marrow transplant, and the foal survived to its fifth birthday, at which point it died of colic, unrelated to SCIDs. Does anyone know anything further about this situation? Or other articles on this horse? Or anyone even heard of this before? I had never heard of it before this article.

I would use a SCIDs carrier mare depending on how nice she is-it would very much depend on the individual though-the mare would have to be truly superior (same goes for stallions, naturally!).
encore
Oh, and I would support a mandatory SCIDs test for registration-I would want the results to appear on the papers but not have any particular restrictions to it. Also, I would not want it required for geldings or mares that are yelded (which is rare, of course), or later on, for two parents that are confirmed clear. Another thing would be that they would have to lower the testing fee for it dramatically (Can you imagine how many fewer foals would be registered and the ruckus people would raise if another $100+ was added to the registration fee!).
barbara.gregory
There is no reason why a foal could not have a bone marrow transplant and, if the transplant was successful, have a normal life. The is a condition in humans which is the same and affected children have a transplant. However, the cost to do it to a horse (and to put another horse through the trauma of doating the marrow), would normally rule it out. Also, if that foal was eventually bred from it would pass on the gene to ALL of it's offspring.

Barbara
encore
Ah, and by passing the gene, do you mean passing the gene on as a carrier, or an afflicted foal? I would have assumed the costs/logistics of such a procedure would be quite a problem, but I had never heard of a foal surviving it, so I thought it was a bit odd.
Roger
QUOTE
She then told me she would not be coming for a visit, as she received her test results that day and was terribly upset to find that her mare was a SCID CARRIER. She was so upset because she bought her from a "BIG" breeder, who KNEW she wanted to breed the mare she purchased, and they never told her that their horses were SCID Carriers.


As she was getting over being "crushed", she was seeking an attorney, because she felt so "taken" by the breeder who sold her the mare. She was devastated, even though our stallions were Clear, she was not going to take a chance on producing 50% Carriers.


Why the irrational hysteria? She was perfectly happy with the mare before she knew it had SCID. She now knows how to breed the mare to avoid any SCID affected foals and will never EVER have to have a foal die from it if she tests and breeds responsibly. I could breed every single Arabian horse on the planet today and NEVER produce an SCID affected foal. Why is it some people cannot figure this simple reality out? Obviously, I would prefer not to produce an SCID foal, but I refuse to breed inferior horses based on irrational fears.
elociN
Hmmm, it's a tricky subject. SCID in itself does't have to be a problem as long as everybody is open about it BUT since the "value" of a SCID carrier is defenitely not the same as the "value" SCID-clear horse (especially a stallion) there are people who CHOOSE to not be open about it, or just refuse to have their horse tested sad.gif
As mentioned, a obligatory test and the outcome on the registry papers would be the best solution (like with some dog breeds who are tested for heriditary deseases). Then everyone can make a well- informed, consiuous decision.

By the way, many people use the argument: rather a superior SCID carrier then a inferior horse.
Can any one give me some more info on the study where it was found that SCID carriers are superior, I must have missed it wink.gif
Seriously that is no argument at all, sure there are very good horses that happen to be SCID carriers but there are also many, many, many good horses that are tested SCID clear. It is not like you have no other choice, either a good horse with SCID or a bad horse without it.
Farmer Guest
QUOTE
Why the irrational hysteria? She was perfectly happy with the mare before she knew it had SCID. She now knows how to breed the mare to avoid any SCID affected foals and will never EVER have to have a foal die from it if she tests and breeds responsibly. I could breed every single Arabian horse on the planet today and NEVER produce an SCID affected foal. Why is it some people cannot figure this simple reality out? Obviously, I would prefer not to produce an SCID foal, but I refuse to breed inferior horses based on irrational fears.
Roger Wrote.

Well Roger, I would probably have felt as "crushed" as this poor lady, if it were MY MARE that I had probably sifter through HUNDREDS of classifieds and farm visits, to find the RIGHT "one" to start a breeding program.

Now, are you telling me that she should not be concerned AT ALL with starting a breeding program with a SCIDs CARRIER ? This lady probably spent a small fortune on her FOUNDATION mare, from a "BIG BREEDER", and she felt deliberately VIOLATED by them hiding the truth.
Why would any breeder HIDE the fact their horses are Carriers if they are so SUPERIOR ?

For HER goals, she would have to geld or yeld the Carrier foals, or offer them to non breeding homes, if she were determined to help WIPE out this genetic disease from Arabian horses. Why is that so hard to understand ?

Are you telling me that you would deliberately PURCHASE a Carrier filly over a Clear one, of the exact same QUALITY ?




Since others have mentioned ALL of the stallions in the AHW that are TESTED Clear....and seem to be Successful, Beautiful, & Competitive stallions..... WHY would anyone want to SELECT for producing HALF of each foal crop as more CARRIERS?

As you already know, very FEW people TEST their horses, not according to who is in the AHT or AHW.

Many are "assuming" that their horses are not Carriers, but you can't tell by looking at them, nor can the Vet, and you can't tell a Carrier from a Clear by their "beauty" or whether they have crooked legs or not.

Sorry, won't cut it ...... There are probably an equal amount of beautiful and successful Clear horses, as Carriers.

What is the big deal about testing and knowing, and telling each buyer what the status is, so THEY can make an informed decision - equal horses.

Sincerely,
Farmer Guest
Guest
farmer,
How is it you know the circumstances behind the lady who bought the carrier mare? Did she ask whether or not the mare was a carrier? Did the breeders who sold her the mare know that she was a carrier? Were they in fact evil "BIG BREEDERs" as you would like to portray them? How much do you know about what went on? Probably nothing. Yet you go on making absurd assumptions and accusations about which you know nothing. To answer your question, obviuosly she should be concerned about her mare being a carrier, because she has to deal with people like yourself who would sooner demonize and eradicate perfectly healthy animals from the gene pool than to stop for a second and realize how irrational you are being. Just answer me one question before you go off on another tirade about evil "BIG BREEDERS" and SCID....can this affliction be 100 percent controlled? The answer is obvious. You just won't admit it.

Roger
Hoogie
I think everyone is free to make their own choices on this issue... but as far as "eradicating SCID from the genepool" goes - is this wise?

From what I know, there has been plenty of studies on the harmful affects of SCID (ie 2 copies of the gene = dead foal), but has anyone researched the positive benefits of carrying only one SCID allele? I'm not saying there ARE any positive benefits... but you never know.... considering this genetic problem is unique to (or at least most common amongst) Arabians - could it be linked to other Arabian traits?

An example that leads me to think this way is as follows: sickle cell anaemia. Sickle cell anaemia is most common in people of African descent. Two copies of the allele means that a person suffers from sickle cell anaemia, which is NOT good. sad.gif However, one copy of the allele IS GOOD, as such a person will be resistant to Malaria - very important if you live in certain African countries! smile.gif

We don't "cull" humans with genetic disorders from the genepool, yet we seem to be managing to survive and grow as a population with no problem whatsoever! Why do we need to be hysterical about genetic disorders (which can easily be tested for and therefore managed) within animals? wink.gif
cvm2002
Just figured that this was a pertinent addition to this thread.

I'm on my way in a little bit to go euthanize a newborn foal. Vigorous at birth, attempting to get up and nurse...Sadly this foal is a Paint with Lethal White Syndrome and will not live to be 24 hours old. Granted, this is an Arabian forum and this particular foal is not, but the disease it has is similar to SCIDs in that its a recessive condition and 100% preventable. The kicker is that I had COUNSELLED this particular client about this condition prior to breeding and she assured me she would "look into it". And here we are 350 days later with a foal to euthanize.

I have my own opinion about breeding or not breeding carriers, and what it is really doesn't matter. The critical thing is that you make an INFORMED decision and not hide your head in the sand or be lulled into a false sense of security with "It won't happen to me."
dahncer
QUOTE
The critical thing is that you make an INFORMED decision and not hide your head in the sand or be lulled into a false sense of security with "It won't happen to me."


Excellent advice, and with all the literature available and the internet at your fingertips..it is a little insane not to look into it!....that being SCID or anything else, for that matter.

I am sorry about your impending trip..it always hurts me to hear of a foal loss! sad.gif
barbara.gregory
Hi Encore

The foal born from an affected horse (mare or stallion) who has had a marrow transplant and survived will always pass on the gene. However, if that horse is then mated to non carriers all the foals will be carriers and will not be affected but will in turn have a 50-50 chance of passing the gene on to any offspring it may have.

cvm2002

I am sorry to hear of your sad chore but totally unnecessary when the owner had been counselled. Is it very common in Paints, I think they are gorgeous horses? I assume there is a test for it as there is for SCIDs in Arabs. I have never heard of any breeder who has had a lavender foal, obviously they must be around. Does anyone else have any info that they are at liberty to share on an open forum?

regards

Barbara
Farmer Guest
QUOTE
How is it you know the circumstances behind the lady who bought the carrier mare?  ----- --- Just answer me one question before you go off on another tirade about evil "BIG BREEDERS" and SCID....can this affliction be 100 percent controlled? The answer is obvious. You just won't admit it.

Roger


Roger,
You have a completely different point of view, which is your choice, as a breeder. Obviously, you are more of a "risk" taker, in losing foals, losing sales or breedings.

I, & many like me, choose to NOT lose any foals or reproduce SCIDs Carriers. Foals are hard enough to get from conception to maturity, without having to worry about KNOWN genetic diseases.

Why should anyone be penalized for believing that a "testable genetic disease", should be bred away from ? I don't want to see any of the other Arabian genetic problems, as listed earlier, either, if I can help it, do you ?

SCIDs is not associated with BODY type, as in the case of HYPP, in Quarter Horses. There is no SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT to having a SCIDs Carrier Stallion standing at stud.


Our Vet went to Cornell U.(NY), and his "class" did SCIDs research, way back when. They were driving to many Arabian breeding farms to collect samples. He has seen the effects of breeding Carrier to Carrier and the AFFECTED foals that are "lost". He definitely has opinions about it, & he also suggests SCIDs testing for Pre -Purchase exams for breeding stock. Do you remember that question a Vet is supposed to ask at the Pre Purchase exam ? "WHAT IS THE INTENDED USE OF THE HORSE YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY ?"

I do not want to have to sort my foal crops by Carrier/ Non Carrier. I firmly believe the "breeding stock" corral with Non Carriers will be sold out long before the Carrier group.

I counseled this lady, in particular, personally, about SCIDs, and SHE made an INFORMED decision. I have no idea what other specific stallions she was looking to breed to, either, and yes, it is a "BUYER BEWARE" market. "Too Bad" for her, for not asking about SCIDs testing of the sire or dam, or the mare she was purchasing.

Hysterical ? At the time, she was devastated, since she had "dreams" and that was not one of them. Is she now Informed? YES!

The BIG BREEDER knew they had CARRIER mares & stallions and chose to take the chance that:
a) a "newbie" would not even know about SCIDs,
cool.gif a potential "buyer" would never think of it as a "pre purchase exam" requirement, or would the VET ask about testing ?,
c) they lose one every now and then--so what, who would know?
d) they figure they would lose breedings to their stallion if they tell, so they test privately, and don't tell...
or
e) figure they will be out of business in a few years, anyway.


If testing WERE required at the time of DNA sampling, and put on registration papers, people would make more informed decisions, and eventually there would be less SCIDs. Don't you think ?

Has there been a request to the registry about adding SCIDs testing as a foal registration requirement ? I would think there would be "Labs" that would put in competitive bids for the work to keep costs down so our fees would not be too high. DNA testing today is much easier and cheaper to do than blood typing, so perhaps the technology is better with SCIDs testing as well, for a cheaper cost.

I just happen to want a SCIDs free herd, and know that any one of the other "maladies" can happen too.

Our Vet says that if you are in it long enough, you will see it all.

I also re-read the book of foaling complications each Spring.
I count everyone I KNOW who is having foals on my list of 100, since 95% of equine births are normal. I hope I don't have all 5 of the others.

We had twins 2 days in a row a couple of years ago, with only 1 foal surviving. Both mares were checked in foal using ultrasound. What are the odds of having twins in that case, and then, what are the odds of having another mare (TB x TB) having twins the next day?

You can get odds on everything.
We had 11 colts before having a filly. One mare had 4 colts before having a filly, another had 4 colts for us and no fillies. The Vet kept saying, "It is 50/50 every time". Same odds as SCIDs Carrier odds.

Let me now ask you a question, Roger.
If you stand a stallion at stud, and tell me he is not tested for SCIDs, would you test him if I wanted to breed to him ?
wink.gif
Guest biggrin.gif
guestGuest
Farmer guest , you bring up valid points. I thank you for making me stop and think.I hope others do as well.
msfarab
QUOTE
She's an SCID carrier.

Financial output: You will invest in a stud fee for yourself to a clear stallion, and give one to the owner of the mare for themselves. You will pay for board, insurance, and vet fees. Eventual transport of the foal to your own farm.

Goal of breeding this cross: This would be purely an investment purpose with intent to sell. Hope would be to at least break even. Unless the individual produced is someone you could just not live with out.

mckulley


There seems to be a definite Yes/No on this topic. rolleyes.gif

Perhaps if this is a superior mare, and there are about 50% of the responders saying they are not affected by buying or breeding a Carrier, then go ahead.
At least you know what she is. It seems there are many who do not test or even know there is a test.
Maybe test the foal before offering it for sale, so you are at least up front about it.

Education is the key to good breeding.

On the subject of Lavendar Foal Syndrome, a new thread would have to be opened, and I am not sure if it would stay civil for very long. ph34r.gif

It does exist, & know of horses who have produced LFS, another true Arabian lethal. There is no test for that one, yet.
msfarab
Roger
Farmer,
QUOTE
If you stand a stallion at stud, and tell me he is not tested for SCIDs, would you test him if I wanted to breed to him ?


I would most certainly test him for SCID if you wanted to breed to him. That's the whole point. I have a brain. I know exactly how to TOTALY eliminate SCID affected foals. It's simple. Anybody can figure it out. One clear parent. I don't know how to put it any more clearly.
guestGuest
Thank you Roger.

We all know how to not get an AFFECTED foal. I respect your decision to breed a Carrier stallion, as you must think he is a wonderful horse, and maybe he is.

I just don't agree with it. For every 4 foals, if statistics follow the percentages they are supposed to, which I have shown in previous examples that they don't, then you are putting a minimum of 2 Carriers back in the breed, for every 4 you produce. Are you sharing the results of Sire & Dam SCIDs results with the potential purchasers of your foals when they come for a visit ?

I would think it would be pretty easy to "eliminate" Carriers, if you test your initial breeding herd, then all would be CLEAR after that. Keep the progeny of your Carrier horses that are CLEAR, and problem is solved and you have not eliminated the "genes" you feel are superior.

I hope I don't ever see some of the other genetic problems that we can't test for.

Certainly, I would rather have a Carrier SCIDs foal than a dead Lavendar foal. sad.gif

We had to SCIDs test 2 Arabian mares one year, which I never gave it much thought before, until it actually mattered. We had to have CLEAR results on both mares for them to be registered in a 2nd breed registry. The other registry did not want to bring in that gene.... were they wrong ?

smile.gif
Roger
QUOTE
I respect your decision to breed a Carrier stallion, as you must think he is a wonderful horse, and maybe he is.


Guest, there you go again making assumptions that you shouldn't. At no time did I ever say I was breeding to a carrier stallion. But neither would I rule out breeding to a carrier if I thought he was a superior individual and would compliment my non-carrier mare, or visa-versa. And for you to claim that there are plenty of superior horses to breed to without using a SCID carrier is to me false. Superior horses are few and far between. Versace is a classic example. He is an incredible sire. I've seen his foals literally dominate at a Regional show. He has sired numerous non-SCID foals that are outstanding but that never would have been produced had those breeders listened to the fear-mongering alarmists that would have you think the breed is about to self-destruct if SCID carriers are not purged from the gene pool immediately. This is an easily managable affliction and should be approached as such.

QUOTE
Are you sharing the results of Sire & Dam SCIDs results with the potential purchasers of your foals when they come for a visit ?


There you go again making flawed assumptions based on things that I never said. Please find for me, where I said I had SCID horses to sell. You're intent in a statement like that may be veiled to others, but it's not to me. You want to paint me as as the villain who would hide the status of an SCID horse from an interested buyer. Which is insulting to me and totally false.
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